# Why Is Athens Still Around but Not Sparta? : AskHistorians <cite>by u/Harsimaja</cite> ## Metadata - Author: [[Harsimaja]] - Full Title: Why Is Athens Still Around but Not Sparta? : AskHistorians - Link: https://reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/ppuly9/why_is_athens_still_around_but_not_sparta ###### Outline - [[timeline of Greek hegemonies]] - [[Roman attitudes toward Sparta and Athens differed]] - [[the impact of geography and invasion on Byzantine-era Greece]] - [[Greece during the Byzantine era was in flux]] - [[Greek nationalism and pride surrounding Athens is mostly a reaction to independence from the Ottomans]] - [[Sparta was a collection of villages not a city]] ## Highlights ### q1 timeline of Greek hegemonies > The Greek city states continues to find a bewilderingly complex series of wars among each other for most of the next century, with Spartan hegemony going back and forth, giving way to Theban, with Athens’, Sparta’s, Corinth’s and Thebes’ fortunes waxing and waning in shifting alliances, eventually seeing the brief rise of Thessaly… until Macedon burst on the scene and essentially swept up almost the whole of Greece (and much beyond). From then on, and with the shift of learning and power to other Hellenistic centres like Alexandria, the major old Greek city states all went into decline. ### q2 Roman attitudes toward Sparta and Athens differed > Eventually Rome gave the Spartans a qualified autonomous status, respecting them for their legendary status as warriors, and the was even growing again by the fourth century. Athens, however, was supported by the Romans as more of a hub of culture and learning. Athens’ status as the early hub of Greek (and thus Western) literature, language, philosophy and learning would consistently afford it special status that Sparta lacked, with very real consequences even to the present day. ### q3 the impact of geography and invasion on Byzantine-era Greece > in the late 4th century both cities were still sizeable, but then the Goths under Alaric swept in Greece and sacked them both. The next century, the Slavic and Avar invasions of Greece led to a massive influx of Slavs into most of the Peloponnese and in fact most of western Greece, except those cities on the east coast Constantinople could more easily reach and protect. So if I had to point to one factor, it would be this: Athens was on the eastern coast and closer to Constantinople, as well as in a desirable port location, so that Constans II and other emperors could set up garrisons there and rebuild what the Goths and Slavs had damaged. Sparta, further off to the south-west, had no such luck, and was virtually emptied. It is in fact a matter of debate whether it was entirely emptied for a while, or whether a small population remained - and whether they were chiefly Greeks or Slavs, and whether the region was later replenished with Greeks, Slavs were Hellenised, or whether the population had ever been mostly expelled. What is true is that Sparta was reduced at most to the population of a small village, and its major buildings reduced to ruins. > > Athens could more easily be retaken and defended by Constantinople after the Gothic and Slavic invasions, while Sparta was further away and inland; any village-sized habitation of Sparta was overshadowed by the nearby fortress of Mystras in the Middle Ages; ### q4 Greece during the Byzantine era was in flux > During the 13th century, after the Fourth Crusade, Western crusaders, as well as Venetians, Genoese, Normans and others swept into the old Byzantine empire and took Constantinople itself and split Greece between them into a complex array of shifting states, called the ‘Frankokratia’ or ‘Frankocracy’ in Greece and ‘Latin Empire’ in Constantinople - ‘Latin’ and ‘Frank’ being what the Greeks generally called Western Europeans. Athens was held as a duchy of its own, with its name adding status to its succession of Burgundian, Sicilian, and Florentine rulers. Much of the Peloponnese on the other hand was ruled by a Norman family for some time, including the very military-minded and expansionist William II Villehardouin, who built his capital, a major fort, at Mystras, just a few miles from Sparta. This may have shifted any remaining focus away from Sparta and reduced it further, though again it is unclear what the population actually was over this period. The Byzantines reconquered the region but William II’s fort at Mystras was impressive enough to remain the regional capital. ### q5 Greek nationalism and pride surrounding Athens is mostly a reaction to independence from the Ottomans > Greek culture had been largely focused on Christianity and the Byzantine tradition for well over a millennium (under Byzantines, ‘Latin’ states and the Ottoman Turks) - even down to people’s names. But a new wave of Romantic nationalism swept Greece during their 1822-1832 war of independence against the Ottomans, partly encouraged by Western European scholars and adventurers who came to help fight for the country they had spent so much of their education learning about. A new awareness of and pride in the status of classical Greece worldwide led to a boom in learning and nationalism around their ancient forebears, and although Athens was a moderately sized city, it was for this reason above all the obvious choice for the capital of the new state, which boomed again, reaching its current size. > > ... and the status of Athens as *the* seat of ancient Western thought led to enthusiasm to expand it and make it the capital upon modern independence, while Sparta was rebuilt but not at all to the same extent or with quite the same prestige. ### q6 Sparta was a collection of villages not a city > Sparta was technically a set of five villages protected by natural barriers, including the river Eurotas, mounts Parnon, Taygetus and to the west past the Eurotas another mount (the name escapes me right now).